Do advisors truly add value to early-stage companies, or are they just a box to check off? In this episode, Marcia explores how to best utilize advisors and eventually a board of directors with guest Kirsten Moorefield, co-founder of Cloverleaf. Kirsten shares her insights on how to leverage advisors effectively and avoid common pitfalls. She emphasizes the importance of finding advisors who align with a company's specific needs and warns against the practice of giving board roles solely based on investment. As co-founder of Cloverleaf, a platform that helps teams improve collaboration and productivity, Kirsten discusses the challenges she and her partner faced when starting their tech company with limited knowledge and connections. Through trial and error, they learned the value of being specific when seeking advice and leveraging the expertise of advisors who could provide practical help. The episode dives into the nuances of valuation, early-stage funding, and the importance of traction beyond revenue in determining a company's potential for success. Kirsten discusses her own experiences with raising funding and the lessons she learned along the way. She emphasizes the role of customer feedback and genuine market interest as indicators of traction, rather than relying solely on monetary investments. Overall, this episode provides valuable insights for both founders and investors, highlighting the importance of strategic advisors and the impact they can have on a company's growth and success.
Do advisors truly add value to early-stage companies, or are they just a box to check off? In this episode, Marcia explores how to best utilize advisors and eventually a board of directors with guest Kirsten Moorefield, co-founder of Cloverleaf. Kirsten shares her insights on how to leverage advisors effectively and avoid common pitfalls. She emphasizes the importance of finding advisors who align with a company's specific needs and warns against the practice of giving board roles solely based on investment.
As co-founder of Cloverleaf, a platform that helps teams improve collaboration and productivity, Kirsten discusses the challenges she and her partner faced when starting their tech company with limited knowledge and connections. Through trial and error, they learned the value of being specific when seeking advice and leveraging the expertise of advisors who could provide practical help.
The episode dives into the nuances of valuation, early-stage funding, and the importance of traction beyond revenue in determining a company's potential for success. Kirsten discusses her own experiences with raising funding and the lessons she learned along the way. She emphasizes the role of customer feedback and genuine market interest as indicators of traction, rather than relying solely on monetary investments. Overall, this episode provides valuable insights for both founders and investors, highlighting the importance of strategic advisors and the impact they can have on a company's growth and success.
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LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/kirstenmoorefield/
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Cloverleaf Board Member Sue Bevan Baggott: https://www.linkedin.com/in/suebaggott1/
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Marcia Dawood:
Hi, Kirsten. Welcome to the show.
Kirsten Moorefield:
Thanks, Marcia. Thanks for having me.
Marcia Dawood:
Yeah, I'm really excited to hear more about Cloverleaf. So here on the Angel Next Door podcast, we're talking about how anyone can invest in change and what you're doing with Cloverleaf and helping to build cultures within startup communities and within startup businesses. I am really excited to hear about. So why don't we get started by having you tell us a little bit about your background and about Cloverleaf itself and what you do.
Kirsten Moorefield:
Absolutely, I'm happy to. So I started my career actually in marketing, and I quickly realized I'm not a creative. And I moved kind of more to the business side and helping to manage large clients in their projects. And I worked in an agency where I got to see all kinds of different mixes of people on projects. And so we had about a group of 100 people that were constantly reorganized onto different projects and would see, hey, this animator with this designer would create the best, most amazing project and the client would come back for more and they'd be so excited. And then you take that same designer, put them with a different animator, and it was horrible. And it had nothing to do with skill set. Everyone had the right technical skills to do excellent work. They had a great track record on different projects. It really came down to how people work together. That is what creates value today, especially in our knowledge based. So I led a team and I had my team take Myers, Briggs and StrengthsFinder, because, you know, hey, let's figure this out. Let's figure out a better way for me to coach my people and the high performers, the low performers and the ones who change performance based on who they're with. And I couldn't figure it out. I love these assessments. They really changed my life. They helped me understand myself better and how I can show up at work in a way that is more valuable to the company, valuable to my customers, but also it's actually fun for me and enjoyable and life giving instead of draining. But I just couldn't figure out as a leader how to use it because I was looking at a spreadsheet with words like restorative and achiever and INTG. I didn't know what all of that meant without going, getting trained and becoming an expert. And I didn't have the money for that. So, long story short, I'm skipping so many details. Somebody that I worked with at that company asked me to start a business with him because I wanted to start a business. And we were chatting about that and he said, well, hey, how about you start this one with me? We're going to take assessments and use them to help people. Actually, he literally said, find their groove at work and use technology with that. So that is kind of the birth story of what ultimately led to Cloverleaf today.
Marcia Dawood:
Wow, that's neat. Yeah, I've taken all know the Myers Briggs, the Strength Finders, and I'm with like, I know a lot about the things that apply to me, but I don't know that many things. There's all these words like maximize things. Like, I was like, I don't know.
Kirsten Moorefield:
What exactly does that mean?
Marcia Dawood:
Yeah, and how would that equate to me trying to work with somebody else who has those strengths that I don't? Yeah, it's a little confusing once you get out of your own little comfort zone.
Kirsten Moorefield:
Yes, it is. So we just saw that there's an opportunity to do that. Those things are super valuable. They literally changed the way I view myself and my life and especially strength Finder when I was 23. And we recognized that that industry hadn't changed pretty much ever. Sure, they went from do a paper copies to do it online, take the assessments online, but everything else about it hadn't changed. It's just take an assessment, get a report. Sorry about that. It's just take an assessment, get a report. And so we thought, not entirely sure exactly what we would do with it, but we knew that it could help people find where they wanted to work. Like when you go to work for a company, you never interview with your whole entire team and really get to know, is this going to be a great team for me to work on? So we thought, hey, let's use technology to get assessments into the hiring process in a way that's not about, are you a fit for this company? But it's really about the specific team you're going to work on. And you, as the recruiter, can see if that's the type of team you want to work on, help reduce turnover in the first six months, blah, blah, blah. All that business case we went to market with that. We created a really limited MVP and put it in front of people and they said, I don't want another recruiting tool, but I love your team building tool you're building. And so we just said, oh, that's right, we're not a recruiting tool. We're a team building software, which there's no market for. And so that was an interesting marketing play. And through a lot of twists and turns, we started to realize people need a way to take what's in these reports and make it really digestible. And so actually, in a total moment of desperation going into a sales call I really didn't want to do, I had heard the same feedback over and over from people that they said, hey, this is really interesting. I really like this. But once I see it a few times, what do I do with it? How is it sticky? Because at that point, it was like charts that aggregated everyone's assessment results on a digital dashboard. And it was super dynamic. As people came and left, it changed, but it was all just visual, right? I actually was, like, dreading going into a sales call, knowing I was going to get the exact same feedback as I'd always gotten, and I literally just fell on my knees and I parade, and I was like, I don't want to do this call. What can we do to improve? Not get the same feedback that's not working for people. And I had this idea to take what was in these reports behind these assessments and take two sentences out and email it to people. So we started doing that, and it's just two sentences like, hey, you're good at this. Try this today, or, hey, you might feel conflict in this type of a scenario, or, hey, this is how this person's most likely to get persuaded do this, not that type of information. And that totally took off. We just started emailing it. It became a huge hit. And that long story short, has turned into what we have coined as automated coaching.
Marcia Dawood:
Automated coaching? That's cool. So how exactly does it work?
Kirsten Moorefield:
So really, we mostly sell to large enterprises where people are consistently changing teams all the time. Or you have that call with that person in Germany that you've worked with maybe once or twice over the past three years, but you don't know them really well, or intact teams who have worked together for a long time but might be having friction or might just not be as productive as they could be. And those folks come onto the platform and take an assessment or two or three or ten, if you want to. A lot of people have already invested into them and just know their results and can input their results. And then we turn that into, like I said, automated coaching. So we'll read your calendar before a meeting and send you a tip on how to best work with that person. Or you have teams on the platform, so those dashboards I mentioned, they're all still there, just chock full of so much more information today that's very dynamic, where you can see, based on this team, what's our strengths as a team, what are our blind spots as a team, what should we focus on as a team? And if you're having any particular moment with a person that you want to go deeper on, whether it's yourself or somebody you work with, you can just search in the platform. How can I delegate better? Why is Raj not responding to my feedback? Why am I having conflict with sue? You can just search for whatever it is you need, and then coaching pops up to help you navigate those situations.
Marcia Dawood:
Wow, that seems awesome. And will really help with building culture within an organization.
Kirsten Moorefield:
That's the goal. One of my favorite things to do is just talk to people about their work experience. I mean, I'll do this just out at a barbecue, but I'll also do it in a more organized fashion for work, like talking to our customers, and I hear from people all the time. So quickly people will go to complaining about somebody that they work with, and they feel conflict, they feel frustrated, they feel seamrolled, they feel confused, they feel overseen, they feel a lot of feelings. And when I ask them some probing questions about it, it often comes down to some pretty basic psychology of different ways that people see the world. It could be that you're a big picture thinker, and so this person who's asking you a bunch of questions that makes you feel undermined or untrusted by that person, but really they're just a detail oriented person and they're just trying to understand your idea. It doesn't mean they don't like it. It doesn't mean they think that you're incapable of thinking through details. It doesn't mean that they're doubtful of your abilities. It just means they're trying to understand it. And I just have come to see that so much of our exhaustion and so much of our frustration and so much of our limited capacity at work oftentimes just comes down to simple misunderstandings about people's different ways of showing up and our different strengths. And when you can understand that, not only can you enjoy each other more, build better relationships, not feel exhausted by the conflict, but feel empowered to navigate the scenario, you actually do better work. Back to the example of being a detail oriented person or a big picture visionary. They both need each other to do their best. I as a big picture visionary, I need the critical thinking, detail oriented folks around me to poke holes, to actually make the idea work, not just vague and huge. So, yeah, that's the goal that we're going for, is help people navigate relationships in a way that builds meaningful, enjoyable, life, enriching relationships, and also unleashes all of us to do our best work.
Marcia Dawood:
Yeah, that seems like a great place to be in a work environment. And how do you measure the results?
Kirsten Moorefield:
Such a good question. Marcia we do surveys before and throughout their experience on the platform. And the reason why I say that's such a good question is because who we sell to is talent management, learning and development people, strategy leaders inside these large organizations. And one of my favorite things to ask them is, how do you measure your success? And most of them say we can't. We can't measure the success of our program we put on, of our training we put on. We'll try to find ways to just tie it back to something broad like retention in the company. And the best way that people do this today is through surveys. And so that's what we're doing. But I'm really excited about work we have going on right now where we're going to move beyond surveys and actually get more interactivity in our coaching moments to where we're going to be able to not just ask a couple of specific questions but really measure behavior change and relationship evolution. So much more exciting news to come on that over the next year.
Marcia Dawood:
That seems amazing. I'm really happy that you pivoted the way that you did and are now working on culture, especially for earlier stage companies too. They need just as much help there as some of the bigger companies.
Kirsten Moorefield:
Completely. Yeah. I mean I talk about we target selling to the enterprise because those teams are so dynamic and change often. But we've had companies on our platform who have twelve people for the past many years and they're still getting a lot of value out of it. And of course our team today we're about 40 employees and we use it all the time and we're intact teams. We're not changing the size of our company or the composition of our teams and it's still super valuable.
Marcia Dawood:
That's great. So one of the things I wanted to talk to you about because our mutual friend Sue Baggett has told me some amazing stories about how well you have worked with outside advisors and board members in order to help grow the business. And I know our listeners, there's a lot of angel investors who are listening and they could definitely, I think they'd like to hear a little bit about how advisors and board members kind of fit into a company. But also there's entrepreneurs that are listening too and maybe you could give them some advice too about how you chose advisors at the beginning, how you formed a board when it came to that time and then how that's evolved.
Kirsten Moorefield:
Yeah, really good questions. Okay. So in the early days we really didn't know what we didn't know and we didn't have a broad network in startup, in tech, or in we really, darren and I started from scratch in our understanding of this world. And so one of the lessons that we learned pretty quickly was that a lot of people really wanted us to be successful and were really excited about our vision and our ideas and very well meaning would give us advice in an effort to help that actually we found out was not very applicable because of whatever background they know. Like somebody who has been I'm in Cincinnati, Ohio, there's a lot of folks from PNG or 5th, 3rd, these really large organizations and the advice that they had to give us just wasn't really applicable because they hadn't had the specific experience we were going through. So one of the ways that we learned early on was how do you read between the lines between someone who really, really wants to help but doesn't actually have the right expertise and then how can you just leverage them in a different way? So we had a lot of like how could we get more specific on our ask so that in their good intentions they're not wasting their own time. Right. So we had those folks help make introductions for us or especially into their organizations where we could get feedback on the product or that kind of a thing. But getting feedback on, for example, our sales process from a large organization that early on wasn't very helpful because we didn't have a team the way that they do. But getting feedback on the product was helpful. So that was a trial by error, learn through mistakes and then informing the board. We just got really lucky, I guess. Sue we got connected to early on through an accelerator we went through, and she came to one of our pitch practices, and she just had really good feedback on the pitch. So her and I met a few more times, and she not only had feedback on just how to pitch investors and all of that, she has expertise in customer research, consumer research, and marketing. And so she taught me tips and tricks on interviewing, which was so helpful in those early days of building a product. And then when she was able to make us an introduction to Queen City Angels, who ended up being our first investors or our lead investors for our first round, and then we had her join the board because she had been able to be so practically helpful to us already. And I think that's a really helpful thing. Informing your board, if you have that luxury of time, is to go with folks who have not just capital, but actual ways that they know that they can help you. Because I also know some early stage founders who have gotten, again, really well meaning early board members who actually can create some distraction in the business because their experience is so different. And so what they think is good advice or what they think the company really needs to do is actually a little too larger scale than is helpful in a four person early stage startup.
Marcia Dawood:
Totally. And, oh, my gosh, you just said so many amazing things there. So let's go back and unpack a little bit. So when you were talking about advisors who really weren't a fit and you didn't want to waste their time and you didn't want to waste your time, that is so spot on, because I've seen that happen before, where people are like, oh, I have all of this expertise. And, yes, they do, and they're amazing people, and they have incredible backgrounds, and they're very well connected, but maybe they aren't the right fit for your company, and that's okay. We don't have to try to fit every square peg into a round hole. So I like how you were saying, look, we used them for what we knew we could use them for, but you said you had to leverage them in a different way, which makes a ton of sense. I see too often where people are trying to put someone in either an advisory role or even a board role, more even a board role when they've written a check. And just because they wrote a check, they can get on the board. And that is just such the wrong thing to do, especially for an early stage company if they aren't the right person that the company really needs.
Kirsten Moorefield:
Yes, 100%.
Marcia Dawood:
So what accelerator were you in?
Kirsten Moorefield:
We did ocean accelerator.
Marcia Dawood:
Oh, nice. Okay. It's funny what you said with sue and the pitch. She is so good at pitch decks. So I do find a lot of times that that is something that startups really struggle with is how do they get their pitch deck in a way that people will get excited and they'll be interested right from the beginning. And I find that the first two slides are usually the ones that will make or break that. It's kind of like, are they actually going to be listening to you while you're going through the other slides in your deck or are they thinking about what they're having for dinner?
Kirsten Moorefield:
Right.
Marcia Dawood:
The first slide has to be like, what is the actual problem that you're solving and are you really solving a problem or are you solution in search of a problem? People hear me say that all the time. And then of course, what is the solution and is it something that people will want to pay money for?
Kirsten Moorefield:
Yes. And I'll say in our earliest days, I spent so much time on our pitch and I mean, I'm talking like who knows how many hours? Definitely over 100 over that first year. And I don't regret it. I think it was worth it. It felt like a waste of time because I wasn't selling or responding to a customer or anything like that. But I think it was really worth it because that's what becomes marketing too. How do you clearly articulate your problem and your solution? That's what needs to go in all of your marketing anyway. And I would also say just as an encouragement to really early founders, I think we did a terrible job. I think the way that we were articulating our problem and solution was in some ways we're still doing it the same way today. But we've evolved it so much better. We articulate it so much better. And we had, of course, 100 no's before we got our first yes. Right. That's how that goes. And I think that it's super painful. So keep trying, but at the same time, don't expect yourself to get it perfect. Don't be so hard on yourself when you get all those no's, because that's also just part of the journey.
Marcia Dawood:
It's part of the learning that is absolutely right. And I love what you said about the marketing piece because that's so true. All of the things that you're doing, they all flow together. It's not like, oh, I'm working on a pitch decadent. That's just about the pitching. No, it's about marketing. It's about how you're going to end up using that in social media posts or other things that you're trying to do in order to promote your business. So there's so much there, and you.
Kirsten Moorefield:
Can test with that now. You can put yourself a little video on LinkedIn of you just talking through your problem and just see does it resonate with people? Does it get engagements? Does it get likes, reposts, like comments, that kind of a thing. There's so many ways that you can practice this before you actually get in front of the investor that I wish I had tried more.
Marcia Dawood:
That is such a smart tip. We're definitely going to call that out. Okay, so then how did things evolve as your board needs evolved and as you were raising more money? Because you've raised two pretty significant rounds now, right?
Kirsten Moorefield:
Yeah, we've raised a couple of rounds and I think that with each actually we raised a seed and then we raised a bridge. Really. We should have been like pre seed and seed, which all these names, right?
Marcia Dawood:
All these I know, seriously, that's why I always tell people, I'm like, you know what, don't worry about the don't worry about it.
Kirsten Moorefield:
Yeah, don't worry about it. Just don't raise a Series B too early, you know what I mean? So we kept our same board for the first two rounds, which know, one investor, which was sue, and one independent. And I think that was also really helpful to keep the board small in those early days because there was so much iteration that it wouldn't have been I mean, we didn't have the board meetings we have today are totally different than those early stage board meetings today. We'll do a lot of look at the same metrics over and over type of a thing, talk about bigger strategic problems, whereas in those days, you don't even have your metrics established. You're just testing so much. And so I think it was really great that sue wanted us to keep the board small. But also we had an independent who was an industry expert. She worked in HR AI for HR at Accenture. And so she reviewed HR startups all the time and dozens a month, right? And so she just had such good industry knowledge to share with us. And then as we evolved, we closed a later like our lead investor on that round. He just had so much experience himself as an operator, as a successful entrepreneur, Kevin O'Connor. And so he joined the board and we expanded it then to five. And we realized we've got Kevin who has such good sales experience and CEO experience of overseeing revenue operations, and we didn't have anyone on our and sue, who's like excellent consumer, understand your customer research market, very strategic on the go to market side. We didn't have anybody on the product side. So we actually did a search through Bolster, which I highly recommend. Bolster.com, they help find talent, like high level talent for startups, whether it's interim, whether it's full time, whether it's board members, whether it's advisors. I cannot recommend them enough because we use them to search for our independent board member. And we found this guy, Srinivas, who was head of product growth at Calendly, and he loved our mission, he loved what we were doing, and he joined the board, which just felt like such a win for us. We were still pretty early stage and small, but he caught the vision and he was invaluable. And he's still on the board today and has been able to bring that product expertise into the board meetings. Because you can't just talk all the time about what are your sales metrics without also understanding, well, what's the product, what's wrong in the product, what's missing in the product, what's strategically going well in the product. So I think the way I could summarize that is it was really about examining where were our biggest weaknesses as a company, where we knew we needed expertise and what was the composition of the board at that time and where did those match up well or not well? And then therefore, who did we need additional expertise from?
Marcia Dawood:
That's awesome. Bolster.com. I hadn't heard of them before, so we'll definitely put information in the show notes about that.
Kirsten Moorefield:
They're so good, so helpful. I'm such a fan of Bolster. We've also used Bolster to find just advisors for our people. So a lot of our business first was built on interns and then early career folks who just had the passion and the drive but didn't have the expertise, but also didn't need the salary of experts. And so we would connect them with advisors, we would find experts in the field. And Bolster has been a really helpful part of that as well, just finding somebody who's really seasoned, who's not looking for a full time job, but really wants to give back to the startup community. And then they'll usually on an hourly basis, just mentor one of our people who needs some help growing in how to strategically think through the problem or what to build up in their department.
Marcia Dawood:
That's great. Yeah, we'll definitely put all that information in the show notes, including all the information about Cloverleaf Me. So, Kirsten, what are some of the things that you wish Angels knew as investors?
Kirsten Moorefield:
Oh, gosh, that's such a good I wish when we were raising, I wish Angels understood two particular things about investing in tech. Tech specifically. It's different with different types of companies, but specifically investing in an early stage tech company, when the first question or one of the first questions we would get asked was, what's your revenue? I started to see that as a red flag of just, I'm not sure this investor is going to be a good fit. Not because revenue doesn't matter. Revenue is king. Revenue matters so much. It shows traction. It's really critical. But in those earliest days, when you're running on an MVP, you've got to find a way to find traction that is not only revenue. I think if a company is generating no revenue, that's a bit concerning. But don't try to form valuation off of revenue and don't see revenue as like the one and only indicator, but look for other indicators of what is really gaining traction inside of this company. And I think that'll look different for different companies. So I don't have the answer of what it should be, but we just had to do so much educating of angels on that topic that took a lot of our time and I think ultimately just created some pain for everybody. So I'm not saying revenue doesn't matter. I'm just saying it can't be the one and only way that you're going to determine valuation or even if this company is viable. Because really, in that earliest stage, you're investing in the founders, not the current business, because it's really about what they're dreaming of and what you believe them to be capable of and what they've proven in ways including, but not only revenue. And then the other thing I would say is when it comes to valuation, valuation in such an early stage is like 100% art. There's no science to it. And we did a lot of back and forth with a bunch of investors and just kept hearing some pretty conservative estimates that were so different than what you would hear if you listen to a podcast from somebody on the West Coast. But we're not on the west coast. We were in the Midwest, and that's where we had connections. And so we went with a pretty conservative valuation that I don't think was unfair. I don't think that at all. However, we did get feedback later on from some investors who passed on us and just said, the founders don't own enough of their company anymore. And so we don't want to risk our capital on a company where the founders aren't as incentivized to continue working for the long haul. So I think that's another thing, is valuation. You just have to be thinking of the long term effect of that because there will be additional rounds when you're that early and you need to protect your interest as an angel, which also involves protecting that the founders can continue to raise and grow their business.
Marcia Dawood:
That makes so much sense. Now, going back to what you were saying about revenue, because I totally agree. So just as an example, what did you want people to look at more than revenue in those very early days for Cloverleaf?
Kirsten Moorefield:
I think traction based on the quality of the product that we like. Queen City did a great job. They interviewed customers and just asked them, what is it that you like about this? What is it that you think about it? And that says so much more than our actual dollars? Because a company can't invest. Tens of thousands of dollars into a product that barely works. Right. Like it's hanging on by a shoestring. I think also it probably depends on the company, but there's got to be other ways where you can see, okay, if this company is building a SaaS product, what are the early adopters? Even if they're not paying, which in most cases they won't be, are they using it? How often are they using it? What are they saying about it? I think sign ups to be on a waiting list is not exactly a good indicator because that's a waiting list that doesn't show that they actually like the real thing. It shows that they just like the idea. So it has to be something where there is proven maybe skin in the game or just like, action speaks louder than words. Right. So something that shows action from the market.
Marcia Dawood:
That makes a lot of sense. I've seen companies where they had like $22,000 in revenue, which seems like nothing, but they were still in pilot programs. They were still trying to prove out that to an enterprise company that their employees would actually use it. So that's going to take some time. And obviously in that example, revenue is not going to showcase exactly what the company is doing.
Kirsten Moorefield:
Yeah, we had 23,000 arr at the end of the year in 2017 and investors were just like, that's not enough. We want to see you get to 10,000 MRR, 5000 MRR. And we were like, how on this product that we have right now? And we also learned don't do free pilots because free pilots, the company doesn't have any skin in the game. So they're not actually going to adopt it because they're busy and they've got other things to do that they do have skin in the game on. And so we did do paid pilots, but the product itself was so limited, so the revenue was small. And my co founder, Darren, he had this ingenious idea one day. He was like, we've only had $50,000 put into this company, so I'm just going to reframe that. With only $50,000 invested into this company, we've generated $23,000 in.
Marcia Dawood:
Awesome. Love it.
Kirsten Moorefield:
And that worked very well for us.
Marcia Dawood:
That's great. Well, Kirsten, thank you so much for being on the show today. We look forward to seeing more about what Cloverlee Leaf is going to do. And we'll make sure to put all of your contact information and how people can start using Cloverleaf in the show notes.
Kirsten Moorefield:
Awesome. Thank you, Marcia.